The dream of flying: How will we take off in 100 years?

[GR] The whole thing is a real-world laboratory for the future, allowing us to explore future topics here in the field of hydrogen technologies, for example in the area of hydrogen tanks or fuel cell technology.

[HA] I think we are definitely still 10 years, if not maybe even 15, away from actually seeing the first airplanes flying with hydrogen.

[VO] Above and Beyond—the podcast by Lufthansa Airlines. For insights into aviation.

[AH] So, dear listeners, I would like to ask you at the beginning of our podcast today to close your eyes. And now imagine an Airbus A320. But not in the air, rather on the tarmac of the airport in Hamburg. The Airbus is not white, but completely blue. And although it looks new, it has already been flying for 30 years. But on board, there is not a single passenger. Something about this Airbus is different. It no longer has a flight permit, but it has a mission, namely to revolutionise aviation. This Airbus A320 is the laboratory for the future of flying with hydrogen, because it could make flying significantly less polluting. And with that, welcome to the Hydrogen Aviation Lab of Lufthansa Technik, the place where hydrogen must be cooled to -253°. That is the temperature needed to make it liquid and the prerequisite for flying with hydrogen. Since you are now listening and not seeing, you can open your eyes again. Today, I am your eyes. I am standing right in the middle of this decommissioned and converted A320, which is packed with technology. In this final episode of our second season, we will talk about how to transform a former passenger aircraft into such a high-tech lab. Why this is even necessary and why ice-cold hydrogen is quite a hot topic for aviation. And we get to the bottom of the question: How do you plan a future where airplanes are no longer fuelled with kerosene but with liquid hydrogen? Let’s talk with the two creators of this Hydrogen Aviation Lab. Hans-Bernd Aringhoff is the Head of Corporate Innovation at Lufthansa Technik here. Welcome!

[HA] Thank you very much.

[AH] And Gerrit Rexhausen, project manager of the Hydrogen Aviation Lab. A warm welcome to you as well.

[GR] Hello!

[AH] So, welcome to ‘Above and Beyond’. I am Anja Heyde.

[AH] Mr Aringhoff, this airplane here will not take off anymore, I just said it. But at some point, it should happen with hydrogen. When? When do you expect that?

[HA] So, we are working across the entire industry to see the first hydrogen airplanes in the 2030s. This will by no means replace today’s fleets, but I think the first smaller airplanes, maybe with 20, 30, 50 seats, will really be flying in the ’30s.

[AH] That’s somehow unimaginable. But we will talk about it during the episode. We are here inside the Hydrogen Aviation Lab. Mr Rexhausen, you are the project manager. Give us a little tour. You have to – well, try. We are now standing in the middle, so to speak, of the space that used to be the passenger area.

[GR] Exactly. And what we see is not just a lot of laboratory seats and what you know from the usual cabin, but the first thing we did, we actually removed all the seats and first created space for all the installations we needed. And we didn’t need that much space. In fact, we only needed half of the cabin. In the other half, we set up a very nice showroom with lighting effects and various monitors. And in the back part, the entire hydrogen technology is installed, just as we need it for laboratory operations.

[AH] So this showroom – you have to imagine, now I am your eyes, it’s a white room with a purple diffuse light, very chic lounge furniture, and on the floor there are some chic light strips. They look a bit like laser lights. That won’t be enough, of course, even if you want to fly with 20 passengers. They can’t buckle up either. The other part already has technology in it. So, you can see a hydrogen tank here. And what else is behind it?

[GR] So, we wanted to keep it generally very tidy for us. So everything we need for the test operation here on the main deck, we have up here, everything we need for control and operation. Everything else is located below us, in the so-called cargo compartment. And we also placed the fuel cell where the auxiliary turbine is usually located in the aircraft, all the way at the back in the so-called APU compartment.

[AH] What is left of the old airplane?

[GR] So quite a lot, actually. We deliberately didn’t want to completely strip the airplane and just have an empty shell, but rather the whole thing is a real laboratory for the future, so that we can also research future topics here in the field of hydrogen technologies – for example, in the area of hydrogen tanks or fuel cell technology.

[AH] That means, if one were already at that point, could one theoretically take off with it?

[HA] So technically, you can still take off with this airplane. It works.

[AH] With hydrogen?

[HA] No. Here’s what you need to know: the engines that are attached are still the regular kerosene engines.

[AH] Okay.

[HA] What we have replaced is precisely this auxiliary turbine, which is usually responsible for supplying the systems in, well, in the cabin: with energy, with air conditioning. And we can actually already operate that with this hydrogen fuel cell. But I have to say again, this airplane will not fly again. But theoretically, it’s still technically capable of doing so, as it stands today.

[AH] We occasionally hear a plane taking off and landing. That means we’re really right on the runway. It’s a bit like the future of flying at the home base, the origin of Lufthansa. It’s a bit crazy, Mr Aringhoff.

[HA] I wouldn’t call it crazy. I would rather say it’s a natural occurrence that we are seeing here. And that is of course also because we have a very large and very strong aviation community at the Hamburg location. So, one topic that is absolutely important to know is that we didn’t do this alone, because in many fields of hydrogen, in some areas also fuel set, we are not experts today. We did this with partners from research, from the DLR, various institutes. There’s the Center for Applied Aeronautical Research in Hamburg. It’s also a joint research location for all Hamburg stakeholders and many others who have contributed. The same goes for the city of Hamburg. So, in that respect, it’s quite a natural thing. It’s nice that it’s also the home of Lufthansa, but it’s also right that something like this happens in Hamburg today and not elsewhere in the world.

[AH] So, on one side we have this showroom, but we are standing in the area where you can still see a few taped-up windows. So, you can still guess that it’s actually an airplane. And there are a lot of cables lying around. There’s a hydrogen tank there, and also, are those fuel cells, or what is that hidden behind?

[GR] We actually removed the casing, just like with a car, and now you can see everything that is behind the panelling, so all the pipes, all the insulation. And that is inherently quite interesting, even for visitors we guide through.

[HA] What you can also see directly here in this old cabin, in the former cabin, is next to the hydrogen tank, the apparatus we need to actually feed this liquid hydrogen in the right condition – meaning at the right temperature – into the fuel cell in a gaseous form.

[AH] So, the converter, if you will.

[HA] Exactly. So, we call it a conditioning unit, with which you basically bring the hydrogen to the consumer in the right condition – in this case, the fuel cell.

[AH] I have the feeling we still have a lot to explain, but since there is a lot of technology here, as I said, and not much space, we’d better move back to the studio.

[AH] So, now we’re sitting here in the well air-conditioned podcast studio and that brings me directly back to hydrogen. So, it has to be cooled to -253° Celsius. Then it becomes liquid and can be used for further processes. Honestly, -253°, how do you ensure that nothing freezes that should stay warm?

[HA] Well, the insulation of the lines and all components is indeed very technically advanced. So, this thermos principle ensures that we achieve a maximum surface temperature of 0°. And that we can actually already ensure in laboratory operations.

[AH] What exactly does the ‘thermos principle’ mean? So, how is it stored, basically? How should one imagine that?

[GR] All containers and some pipelines are double-walled. This means they have, not an air layer, but a space in between that is evacuated, meaning air is removed, and additionally equipped with materials so that radiant heat cannot penetrate. And through this process, it is achieved that very, very little heat is introduced, and thus the hydrogen can also warm up.

[AH] That means you will always have to carry around a huge tank somehow, but that’s what we do today as well, just differently on another level.

[HA] So the tank is actually something that is more complex, because today you can just store kerosene like that. So, even when you refuel with diesel or gasoline, it’s simply liquid under normal environmental conditions. And we will always need these double-walled, vacuum-insulated thermos flasks to keep the hydrogen at -253°, but still have no icing on the outside and no safety risk of getting cold burns, for example.

[AH] I think we’re going to really dive deep today, Mr Rexhausen. How does the fuel cell work in the A320?

[GR] The fuel cell is a classic fuel cell, as we already see in buses or vehicles. It is an electrochemical process in which hydrogen is, so to speak, cold-burned with oxygen from the air. And only water is actually produced. That is also, I would say, the charming part, that we work almost emission-free.

[AH] And then the engines are operated first and then the onboard kitchen, or is that – how should one imagine that?

[HA] So actually, it’s the opposite in the setup we implemented, because we didn’t initially tackle the propulsion systems, but rather just this auxiliary power unit – we replaced that. This means the fuel cell now in the aircraft supplies the cabin – you can use the kitchen, you have light, and you can also start the onboard systems with it. So, in principle, electrical energy for the cabin and for the aircraft.

[GR] So, it was important for us to first fully map out the entire process chain. Whether it’s ten kilowatts that we ultimately generate electrically or 100 is actually irrelevant at first. The pure process from the delivery of the liquid hydrogen through storage, refuelling into the aircraft, and then the conditioning we just mentioned, but also subsequently the fuel cell – the conversion into onboard power is also quite an extensive process that we can also simulate in our lab.

[AH] That means, what are the first, I would say, insights that you are allowed to talk about from these processes that you were able to measure?

[HA] We are in research. And much of what we once planned, what we also planned with, let’s call them the leading experts, be it from DLR, from ZAL, from everyone, there are things that simply do not work as one imagines on a drawing board or in the simulation. And we had to do many things two or three times. We found out where there are difficulties, such as properly insulating this line, where there are also difficulties in the overall process, where safety aspects must be considered. And you have seen it, among other things, the entire fencing. These are all safety precautions we have taken so that we can safely operate this test lab here at an airport, right next to passenger planes that take off and taxi 20, 50 metres away from us.

[AH] And briefly again, the range of hydrogen airplanes: so, if we assume you have to carry such a thermos, as we’ve called it, how much fits in there? So, how far can such an airplane go?

[GR] Well, the further you want to fly, the bigger the thermos becomes and the less space remains for passengers. And at some point, especially on long-haul flights, you reach a point where it’s no longer worthwhile. Actually, it’s the shorter routes that are then predestined for such a system.

[AH] So in comparison, I would say, to an airplane that flies with kerosene, the dimension is then different.

[HA] Well, it depends on how you solve it. You can either make an aircraft fuselage larger to transport the same range and the same number of passengers. Or if we perhaps simply stay with this A320 that we have, if you want to ensure flight operations that allow for two to three hours of flight time, then you will be missing about a quarter of the cabin at the back because you simply need the space for the tanks. Or you place it below, where the luggage is usually stored. But you already need a significant part of the current fuselage for that.

[AH] We’ll continue talking in a moment, delve in a bit more, but we also want to talk about the dream of flying, which is as old as humanity. Humans have always pondered the future, including the future of flying. But today, artificial intelligence can also help with looking into the crystal ball. We asked the AI what the future of flying might look like. And fittingly, we also had AI speak it. Here is the result.

[KI-Voice Female] Over the next 50 years, air travel will undergo a fundamental transformation. Aircraft will become quieter, more efficient, and produce fewer emissions – thanks to new propulsion technologies such as hydrogen engines, hybrid-electric systems, and even fully electric short-haul planes. The use of sustainable fuels will become the norm, supported by global regulations and technological advancements. Aviation infrastructure will also evolve: airports will operate increasingly autonomously, check-in processes will be fully digitalised, and biometric identification will replace traditional boarding passes. Drones and vertical take-off and landing aircraft will complement short-haul routes, particularly in urban areas.

For passengers, travel will become more comfortable and tailored to individual needs. Cabin environments will adapt personally – lighting, temperature, and entertainment systems will respond intelligently to preferences and the time of day. Delays will decrease thanks to improved connectivity and predictive maintenance. Flight schedules will become more flexible, with denser offerings, even away from major hubs. At the same time, airlines will face intense pressure to innovate: they will invest heavily in sustainable technologies, automate operations, and increasingly offer modular fare models that better meet passengers' needs. The future of flying will be quieter, greener – and significantly smarter.

[AH] So, this is what the future of flying looks like, according to AI. Everything will be more efficient, sustainable, comfortable, and punctual. There’s definitely a push for it to be more sustainable, thanks to the Hydrogen Aviation Lab at Lufthansa Technik in Hamburg. Here, hydrogen experts are working on the fuel of the future. Mr Rexhausen, hydrogen needs to be extremely cooled first to make it usable. And then it has a catch: it’s highly explosive. What is the biggest risk in storage and refuelling? Do you need strong nerves for that? Because that’s always a topic when talking about hydrogen refuelling for cars – it’s probably similar, then.

[GR] It's a good point – or the comparison with cars, indeed. So, you definitely need strong nerves at the beginning. But that’s generally the case because it’s something new. And I’m sure the first refuellings of vehicles with gasoline, which is also not without risk, indeed, made people break out in a sweat. And by now, people have got used to it, they also manage with this dangerous substance. And that’s the point where a lot of work still needs to be done with hydrogen. That means we are initially lacking experience, but fundamentally the issue is manageable. It’s highly volatile, correct, and also explosive over a very large range. But all of this can be ensured by, for example, making the pipes and systems permanently sealed, to actually address this issue first.

[AH] How would it work, I mean, in a way that makes you feel safe, because, I mean, kerosene is also highly explosive. Let’s not kid ourselves, Mr Aringhoff.

[HA] Absolutely. And I always dare to make the comparison: if we were to ask people from 100 years ago and tell them that 500 people fly through the air with 100 tons of kerosene for ten hours, they would probably look at us a bit oddly. So, fundamentally, you have to actively manage these systems with hydrogen. That means technically, there are monitoring devices. We also have, in our test aircraft, everywhere, so-called air sensors that measure the concentration of hydrogen, so we can ensure that nowhere does too much hydrogen accumulate in the air, because it…

[AH] So, when refuelling around the nozzle, right?

[HA] During refuelling, but also actually in the entire cabin where we stood before. So, we also have, at all points where the lines run, it can theoretically happen that leaks occur and hydrogen escapes. And that must be actively managed. But there are technical systems for that, and as you mentioned, with kerosene, you have to be careful that where kerosene flows, nothing should ignite, no spark should occur. We must ensure the same with hydrogen. And actually, I have to say, in the entire scientific discussion, this is not the major hurdle. Well, it is known, it’s a topic, but there are solutions for how to operate the whole thing safely.

[AH] What would the infrastructure at an airport need to look like for it to work, so that one day we can fly with hydrogen?

[GR] Yes, basically the spaces and the areas needed are initially significantly larger than for kerosene, at first glance. This means it must be ensured that a required amount of liquid hydrogen is stored or even produced on site.

[AH] So, a hydrogen refuelling station, right?

[GR] Exactly.

[AH] Okay.

[GR] A large hydrogen refuelling station, storage of liquid hydrogen, or liquefying gaseous hydrogen directly on site, which would ease the situation a bit. But still, one must be able to store a certain amount of liquid hydrogen and also transport it. This is, of course, more challenging than with kerosene, which is liquid at ambient temperature.

[AH] How would that work at the airport? Are our airports designed so that you can just build a hydrogen station there?

[HA] That depends a lot on the airport and the conditions. There are airports that are spatially extremely limited because they cannot expand in any direction, as they’re built in the city. For them, it is, of course, ambitious because additional space is needed, as kerosene will still need to be stored for many decades while also having hydrogen. But from a passenger’s perspective, I can perhaps say again, it will be experienced relatively similarly to today. So probably, tanker trucks will drive up to the airplanes on the airport grounds and refuel the hydrogen. The process itself will look a bit different, probably more with automation and robots than by hand, because the hoses are significantly heavier due to the insulation. So you need less strong nerves, but you need strong hands first. But fundamentally, the goal is that we say hydrogen will only prevail if, from a passenger’s perspective, the experience is similar, that refuelling can be done in half an hour, and that the entire airport doesn’t have to be evacuated when refuelling the aircraft. That means we have to work towards that. And that is also one of the reasons for our Hydrogen Aviation Lab, so that we can replicate the normal daily operational processes just as well as with today’s airplanes.

[AH] So that means the regulations are stricter than currently for kerosene because there is so little experience? I’m just asking.

[HA] Yes, exactly. So, because we have less experience, we currently have significantly stricter regulations. For example, as soon as we have hydrogen in the aircraft, this aircraft must maintain certain minimum distances from critical infrastructures like the tower. This will certainly regulate itself more and more with the experience gained in operation, and then also settle in, so that there are less cumbersome processes around it.

[AH] You both talk as if it’s the most normal thing in the world that I eventually fly with hydrogen. I assume so too, but if you, I mean, if you observe that there are people who are dealing with hydrogen for the first time, there is actually a kind of apprehension or calming respect, a different approach? Apparently not.

[GR] No, so actually, the mechanics that we involve anyway approach it with very high motivation, indeed. So, no fear, but really curious to do something new. And we have never had problems or very rarely, indeed, getting resources for our conversion work. And that was a topic that was always reflected back to us: “It’s incredibly interesting what you’re doing, and we're really eager to be involved.” Then the employees were also involved with a completely different attitude.

[AH] Now, the A320 we were standing in earlier, this Hydrogen Lab, has a digital twin, a kind of virtual replica. Why? What happens there?

[HA] The reason is that we actually want to build an infrastructure in the long run, that doesn’t require these physical experiments every time, but rather where we can simulate many things on the computer. But you should imagine such a simulation model like this: what we first did was really create a 3D model of this airplane. We needed that in the beginning to plan all the components and to consider: how can we fit what where? What does that mean for the weight, for the load distribution in the aircraft? We are currently working on making this digital twin a functional digital twin. So, this means that this computer software can essentially also simulate what happens during the refuelling process. How do the temperatures change? How does the hydrogen flow? What happens if it’s stored for a longer time? And basically, this is how research looks nowadays: so, one always tries to build a computer model in parallel to what is physically done and experimented. Because once it’s set up and adjusted with the real data, you no longer have to conduct the experiments physically every time. Instead, you can start various test runs virtually with different parameters, saving time, money, and effort from having to validate everything experimentally by hand.

[AH] I read that the digital twin can also do predictive maintenance. What exactly does it do then?

[HA] So, predictive maintenance, it cannot do it directly, but it helps to develop it. Predictive maintenance means that maintenance and repairs are not done only when something is broken, but rather the entire system, let’s call it, is observed live, captured with sensors to see what happens, and then also provides recommendations on when it makes sense to do a repair or an inspection to avoid damage that might become significantly more expensive or have much larger impacts. And this is again the topic: we want to analyse through these models, these digital twins, for example wear behaviour. How quickly does the tank possibly become cracked or deformed, expand due to heat input? The fuel cell itself also undergoes aging like other electrochemical systems. And we also want to explore with the simulations, parallel to the real experiments, how quickly and under what conditions such a system deteriorates.

[AH] And that means the hydrogen tank will eventually say, “Hello, I’m leaking.”

[HA] So, the tank itself won’t say it, the sensor system will say it, but also, for example, where do you place the sensors? Where are the critical points in such an operational behaviour? Or even better, how can you, through intelligent control, manage the refuelling process to avoid exposing the tank to thermal stress repeatedly, and make it last longer?

[AH] Then let’s take another look: the future of flying is certainly strongly shaped by new propulsion technologies and innovative fuels like hydrogen. But there’s also a customer perspective, and at Lufthansa Airlines, Victoria Schuster takes on this role. She is responsible for product and customer experience. We asked her, what is her vision of flying? How will passengers experience the future in the air and on the ground?

[VO] In the past, Victoria Schuster says, products like seats, catering, or service were often thought of and developed separately. This silo thinking has now come to an end, says Schuster. The three dimensions are being considered together to create a holistic experience for air travellers.

[VS] The first dimension is really the physical product. It can be a seat, it can be a meal, it can be a lounge. But the second element is more about human interaction. So, what happens between the crew and the guest, for example, while the meal is being brought to the guest? And the third dimension is more of a digital component. So, how do we manage to enrich an experience in such a way that one can perhaps also design this experience through digital devices, just as one would like as a guest?

[VO] So, more focus on experience design and less on the individual product. For this, says Victoria Schuster, the airline must better understand its customers. Data from extensive surveys, feedback, and trend research help to further develop the customer experience. In the end, guests should have a clear feeling: the journey was an experience and it was worth the money.

[VS] We always call that value for money, which we actually inquire about. We want our guests to have an experience that, on one hand, lets them feel the hospitality we want to convey. But we also want them to feel well taken care of, understood, that we have thought things through, and above all, that they also had moments of surprise—and I believe that's something we still need to work on a lot. That there are moments that are particularly charming, particularly surprising, that perhaps come unexpectedly, which might be harder to achieve with a more siloed product orientation.

[VO] An important milestone: the introduction of the new Allegris seat. But the desired customer experience does not end there.

[VS] The seat alone cannot be it. That means we cannot stop or end with a new seat, but with FOX – Future Onboard Experience –, we really want to create the experience, the service experience I have on board, beyond the seat, in a truly holistic way. This is, of course, the food. So how much do I enjoy the food? How appealing is it presented? But it is also the human interaction with the crew. However, there can also be possibilities on a digital level. Is there a way for me to customize my service, to decide when something should happen on board? And that for all classes at once. We have actually never done that at Lufthansa before.

[VO] An essential part of a flight also takes place on the ground, before boarding or during transfers. Accordingly, the lounges are changing and losing their waiting hall character. The keyword here is also individualization.

[VS] We really want to make a lounge into a feel-good oasis, a retreat. People are not the same, situations are different. That means a person might come into the lounge and perhaps would like to rest, maybe even close their eyes for a few minutes. Others come into the lounge, definitely wanting to eat because they might want to sleep on board. And other people come into the lounge and definitely want to finish a meeting, want to work. This means we see this need for more individualization even within the lounge itself. Especially in the design. What zones do we create? In the past, we often had very uniform large areas. Now we are moving more towards different smaller, modular-like zones, where perhaps chairs also look different. One is better designed for working, the other perhaps better for resting.

[VO] For many air travelers, boarding is also a first point of contact with the brand. Lufthansa Airlines focuses on clearly communicated and structured processes to enable stress-free boarding, for example, through digital push notifications to smartphones. The goal here as well: more time for people, more hospitality. And finally, the ultimate future topic: sustainability. Not only in engines and fuels, but also in food, even in cabin design and entertainment.

[VS] Seats have become heavier, more opulent, larger. I believe this is where we will see a trend reversal, because we think the trend will move more towards sustainable materials, lighter seats, and less complex seats again. But even if we stay in the area of inflight entertainment, will it still be the case that we really have these screens, that is, the monitors, in the seat? Will that still be the case in ten or fifteen years? Or will we all be sitting there with some cool VR, AR glasses, and that will be the new form of entertainment?

[VO] And with all the changes, Victoria Schuster emphasizes, one thing remains untouchable:

[VS] The highest priority must remain safety. Of course, we also want our guests to disembark from a flight in five to ten years and say: ‘I felt completely safe and comfortable. Hey, that was a great experience and I truly experienced genuine hospitality. I was extremely warmly cared for and I felt that someone was thinking ahead for me, that someone understands and knows me.’

[AH] A brief excursion into the future of flying from the passengers’ perspective with Victoria Schuster, Product and Customer Experience at Lufthansa Airlines. So, I’ll ask both of you now quite casually, after everything we’ve discussed: hydrogen is not that easy to handle, is it?

[GR] There are challenges, but they are, well, quite interesting for me as an engineer, actually.

[AH] But there are also, let’s say, various other sustainable aviation fuels. Why does it have to be hydrogen? So, what makes both of you so convinced that it is the one?

[HA] So, it doesn’t necessarily have to be hydrogen. I think we will also see various different solutions over the next decades – and you really have to plan that long – to make flying more sustainable. You need to know one thing when you talk about these so-called ‘sustainable aviation fuels: for what is produced in large quantities, one will essentially have to proceed by using solar energy or wind energy to first split water into hydrogen and oxygen. And let’s briefly remember this hydrogen. You then have to combine it with carbon dioxide that’s extracted from the air, and then you can synthetically produce this fuel. So – but you might already have heard about it – this hydrogen, which is needed as an intermediate product, could also be used directly to power an airplane. And if you compare these two topics, both have extremely large challenges to produce the quantities needed for aviation. But it makes sense and is actually the best option to work on everything we have, because we don’t really know how the future will unfold. I believe we will see a mix of different propulsion types and different aircraft when we look 10, 20 years ahead.

[AH] Mr Aringhoff, you mentioned at the very beginning that Lufthansa is not doing this alone. So, there are simply many project partners involved in the Hydrogen Aviation Lab. What role do these partners play in the collaboration?

[HA] Well, I would say that it plays an essential role, really an irreplaceable one, because if you look at just this one project we’re working on, none of the partners, including us, could solve it alone. For example, we have experts from the German Aerospace Center who usually deal with rocket propulsion systems that work with liquid hydrogen. They know liquid hydrogen. We have the experts who are familiar with fuel cells. These are also colleagues from the DLR. We have colleagues from the Center for Applied Aviation who also deal intensively with refuelling processes. And then you also need someone who has such an aircraft, who can convert such an aircraft, who can assemble such a complete system, and many other small partners who are also involved. Research is always a team effort. So it’s always like this – one partner alone could not achieve this and that’s why we work together. And I think the nice thing in this context is that many companies and institutions, which are otherwise competitors, I’m calling it in ‘daily business’, work together in research.

[AH] And how far is this Hydrogen Aviation Lab actually from a real airplane now? So, what’s still missing for it to take off? Well, not this one, but maybe another.

[HA] I would first answer the question in years. I think we are definitely still 10 years, if not maybe even 15, away from actually seeing the first airplanes flying with hydrogen – probably not exactly in this form, but there will be airplanes. It is indeed the case that the systems we have installed today, not a single one of them will fly exactly as it is in the airplane today. But what we have depicted here is everything needed to represent hydrogen, from delivery at the airport to energy conversion. And each system can also be replaced step by step. That’s the charming part about it. You have seen it. You can replace each individual part with another that is better suited, lighter, more focused on aviation, and further expand it. And from this system, as it stands, you could, in principle, make something in a few years that could also fly in this form.

[AH] This ties back to the beginning when you said, Mr Aringhoff, that by 2030 it will somehow be within this spectrum – so, 10 to 15 years.

[GR] Well, 2035. It depends.

[AH] Roughly speaking.

[GR] Yes, roughly speaking. It depends, as always, on which mission lengths are considered. And, as mentioned, the shorter routes will certainly be able to be powered by hydrogen first.

[AH] Then both of you might not only be researchers but also passengers in the end. If you are sitting in a hydrogen-powered airplane in maybe 10 or 15 years, what will be the first thing you think of?

[HA] Well, I think I would first grin and be happy.

[AH] And Mr Rexhausen?

[GR] I would also be happy and reminisce a bit about the 7th of July 2022, when we received it, so to speak, handed over to us. And that was indeed a milestone for us in the project.

[AH] And I don’t hear a single faint doubt and find that wonderful. Many thanks to both of you, Hans-Bernd Aringhoff, Chief Innovator at Lufthansa Technik, and Gerrit Rexhausen from the Hydrogen Aviation Lab. A heartfelt thank you to both of you for this conversation, which was anything but cool, unlike hydrogen, and best of luck for the lab and the future of hydrogen aviation.

[GR] Yes, thank you very much from my side as well. That was very, very exciting, and very interesting questions.

[HA] It was a pleasure and also an honour to contribute to this podcast. Thank you.

[AH] So, that was the fifth and final episode of our second season of ‘Above and Beyond’, the Lufthansa podcast. We have looked from the beginnings of the airline around 100 years ago to the future of flying. The brand with the crane was and is always at the forefront as a pioneer of commercial aviation, a technology driver, and a trendsetter. We have looked at the airline’s eventful history, its fleet, its route network, its crises, and Lufthansa has always grown from them. I had a lot of fun guiding you through this season. I am Anja Heyde and thank you very much for listening. And otherwise, have a good flight!

[VO] That was Above and Beyond—the podcast of Lufthansa Airlines. Follow our Instagram channel lufthansaviews. As always, you can find all the links in the show notes.